Carmen Stevens

Bruce Whitfield: This week’s Solutionist Thinker is Carmen Stevens. She's a winemaker and she's Chief Executive of the Carmen Stevens Foundation. I'm Bruce Whitfield, you’re listening to RMB Solutionist Thinking. Now, Carmen Stevens has won several awards including Naked Wines Winemaker of the year 2015. She is a graduate of an Agricultural College. He did that way back in 1995. We were you a lonely woman among a sea of two-tone shirts and ‘kort’ broek?

Carmen Stevens: I was one of five. It was the first year that Elsenburg accepted five girls into the college. So, every year they taken a hundred students and five of them for that specific year, which was ‘93 was woman.

Bruce Whitfield: And what was that?

Carmen Stevens: That was a very challenging time in my life as you can think… ‘93. Yeah, I think, I had a different idea of what the college would be like before I arrived and, on my arrival, to find that everybody that's these actually white, made me stand out of it might be a bit too much.

Bruce Whitfield: Well it specially at that time. So therefore, goes deeply uncertain places still we aren't yet in our democracy. It is a very different country. And here you are as a trailblazer, as a black woman in an environment, which is hostile, I assume toward you.

Carmen Stevens: Very hostile, very hostile. I think, as much as it was a challenge to me, it was a challenge for them as well. I think I was everything that they did not see black people as I unfortunately never was raised to keep my mouth, you know. I had an opinion and I had an opinion about a lot of things and that caused me a lot of grief.

Bruce Whitfield: Did you make friends?

Carmen Stevens: I had a few friends. I had the girls and I had say three to four of the male students that was my friends, but that's a very small amount of people to have friends at a college.

Bruce Whitfield: What motivated you to go into that environment and to go towards agriculture and, then to go into this very conservative environment.

Carmen Stevens: The reason I went into or other side on wine making is that, I had a what people now would refer to, as a learning disability. I could not read and write English so well and, my mom… her solution was after many nights of sitting with me is try this, which was Mills & Boon, read this.

Bruce Whitfield: She must have changed her life and so many other ways.

Carmen Stevens: Exactly. I was so little, and she made me read that every night for every night. I had to read and it really, I mean its things that a child that age should not read but made me want to read. And, most of those settings was Ivan Vineyards with wine and, one particular book was about this winemaking California and how she blended wine and I said to my mom one day, I'm going to be a winemaker.

Bruce Whitfield: Mills and Boon. You’re the first person I have ever met who has had a positive outcome out of reading Mills and Boon.

Carmen Stevens: Yes, so completely romantic vision of what winemaking was going to be about. I applied to our Elsenburg. I matriculated 1990, so my first application was in 1990 and I was refused based on colour. The second year, I was refused based on, that I did not come from agriculture background and the third time, I was refused because I did not do military service. Yeah what that's it. Most people I would say 95% of the students at it study at Elsenburg did come out of the military service.

Bruce Whitfield: Well, they would have been white male. Yeah, 20-year olds who had gone through the national service system in South Africa, but that just again emphasizes just how different an environment you were going into from what you were used to and what we're used to today.

Carmen Stevens: Yes, but I didn't know that until I arrived there. I really did not know that. I remember my first day walking up these days and these guys were standing on both sides of the staircase and they would say Morning Ms Stevens... Good morning, Miss Stevens, and when I got to which I thought was step number 20, I just turned around and ran back. I was like, I'm gonna kill me and after 5 minutes sitting in my in my room thinking nobody's going to come get me. I have to go back I had to face it and years later. I went back to I was invited to come and have a talk at the college and I walked up these same season was only eight and I asked to tell my God remember so clearly this was like a mountain in front of me because all these big boys were standing the and they knew who I was I didn't know who they were and that was really, really intimidating.

Bruce Whitfield: Because traditional if I had to ask people listening to this to sketch a picture of a winemaker, they'll probably be 40 to 45 still in South Africa. They would be a white man in many cases. They would be people who had come up through wine growing families and had gone and studied viticulture at Stellenbosch. And that's the archetypal image that we have in South Africa, but winemaker, you don't take any of those boxes and you certainly didn't take any of those boxes back then what made you stick to it? What made you go? I can overcome the prejudice. I can overcome the feeling of not fitting in because I have my Mills and Boon dream.

Carmen Stevens: That was the only alternative I had to work to get there. I had to my mom didn't have the money to send me to college. So, I worked in a factory in Elsies River for months. I sold shoes on Cape Town station over weekends for months. I sold chocolate eclairs for months. That was the only money I had I had to make it work. I had to take whatever came away in my second year it became unbearable, really unbearable to a point where my mum said to me you pack your bags or about coming back at for you. It was it was a time that I never in my life on back. It was horrible. It was racism at its best. And I decided before I go, I said I'll pack my bags. But before I go, I will go see the heat of Agriculture Western Cape. He was based at the college and I told him what I said to him, I basically said to him, I'm going to close your college for you. I'm going to the newspaper. Anybody wants to listen to me, I'm going to tell the world what's happening at this college and he made me sit down tell him the whole story and made drastic changes. Went back on the Monday, he called him for the together made very clear and, from the onwards my life was much much better.

Bruce Whitfield: Are you still in contact with people who graduated with you? Are you still friends with some of the people that you graduated with?

Carmen Stevens: I have some great friends and I have people that I would like to refer to as people that I met while I was there.

Bruce Whitfield: You know who you are.

Carmen Stevens: Yes

Bruce Whitfield: How much has the wine industry changed since then?

Carmen Stevens: Not much.

Bruce Whitfield: And, that's I mean and ask the question deliberately because the wine industry I think sees itself as having an image problem, but perhaps the wine industry in South Africa as a structural problem.

Carmen Stevens: In 2014, there was a big uprising at Elsenburg, at the college and I read a news24 article and I was shocked. What was written in that article is exactly what they did to me 20 years ago then, and I was like, this is cannot continue, this this should be addressed. Why 20 years later students of colour are still going through the same stuff that I've been through. And I tried to connect, I did connect with the people at finished with me and we try to put something in place but funny enough, the college did not come through for that. So, if I look at how many parents still call me up today… Tell me what must I do for my kid to survive at this college that is heart-breaking. But, that goes back to what just was published at Stellenbosch just a few weeks ago about coloured woman. It's the same, it's the same mentality and, if I look at the numbers at Elsenburg at the moment, students of colour versus white students and the same at the University… why are there so little, so few students actually being accepted into these institutions. Where is the gatekeeping?

Bruce Whitfield: It seems that the gatekeeping seems to be very effective?

Carmen Stevens: It's been very effective. It's been effective at the colleges, it's been effective in the industry.

Bruce Whitfield: Do you find that prejudice spilling over still into the industry itself? Because the industry would like to see itself as one of those transformative, it's an industry that employs 300,000 people. It paints a picture of itself as a great corporate citizen for want of a better term.

Carmen Stevens: These definitely a spill over. I think, the problem is… that make no mistake, there is some fantastic wine people out there, but there is also people that know, what I like to call, they appoint people that they know they can manipulate and manage them, you know, get your input but only to a certain extent. They appoint people in positions, but you never get to a position or to a level where you can actually make a contribution. Yes, the industry is changing but it's not changing fast enough and, the reason is that, in my opinion, they’re not equipping these people to make a proper contribution. We just they was just appointed a Transformation Manager through, for the wine industry. I see hard days for that lady because this is not this is not the easy industry. If I look at, there is about 60 plus black own wine brands in South Africa. We do not get a foot into this market. People have a pre-conceived idea already if it's a black wine, that's what they call it… the quality can obviously not be there. That's the first thing. The second thing is it's a wine owned by a black person and therefore you can only buy X amount for this wine. How you change that?

I've been in the industry now for 23 years, if I didn't find a market overseas, I don't think I would have been able to go on my own.

Bruce Whitfield: Tell me how you got into creating your own brand and, then looking at an environment in South Africa, which you tell us is hostile to you, as a black woman. Again, the woman thing is important there as well because can women make wine?

Carmen Stevens: Women out amazing winemakers… 

Bruce Whitfield: Exactly, but there is a prejudice there is a there is a prejudice and me I think maybe the barrier between men and women is winemakers is slowly breaking down. Yeah, but the race issue in South Africa's pertinent. So, how did you persist in creating your own brand, look at the local environment and, go... You know what actually it's easier to take this and go global.

Carmen Stevens: It was very different, very different. I worked for a very nice company. It was American-owned company and they gave me a lot of free reign and then in 2011, I think. I got to call one night, Friday night. I was just divorced. So, I look at my phone and, I think, kids – what's happening with the kids and Bromley see it's eight o'clock and I pick up and say Hi and, this guy says Hi, I am Rowan Bromley and I'm calling you from the UK. What do you want? And, he goes like how would you like to have your own wine label?

Bruce Whitfield: And, you’re thinking is this Wackhead Simpson, prank calling me.

Carmen Stevens: Go play and I said listen, it's Friday night, it's 8 o'clock, don't have something better to do than to prank me. Where did you get my number explained that it does fall, please tell this person will choose very good friend of mine. Thank you, but I don't have time for this now and until I started telling that the English accent is a nice cherry on the cake and I put down the phone and this guy called me back and said can I please have your email address? I said, why don't you just ask him but here it is. Gave it to him, the Monday I got back to my workplace and checked my emails and there was this email from this guy giving me his whole pedigree. He started Virgin Wines for such Sir Richard Branson. I was like, oh my God, how do you recover from that? How do phone this guy and say, I'm so sorry, I was actually quite rude and it's was… and eventually he called me.

Bruce Whitfield: So, you didn’t have the guts to phone him back.

Carmen Stevens: No, I didn’t have the guts… He called me and he said to me, Carmen, we would like to help you and I know that the markets is difficult. Let us help you and, after few months putting things together. I launched, well they launched - it was published as my solo career. I had to say I'm going to make two wines that they will sell on their platform but it was like pre-order before the wines made and we and they raised 1.2 million for me in 10 hours. To start my own brand.

Bruce Whitfield: So, explain how that works then because this idea of pre-order, we've seen a lot of Venture Capital works that way, you might produce a movie. So, you might put a thousand rand to a movie to get your name in the credits or 10,000 rand to get a share of the profits.

Carmen Stevens: Yeah. It was that sort. It was, people would phone in and said, okay, I will take two cases. I will take two bottles and here’s the money for that and, they gave me I gave me a week. I said that's never gonna happen. I've never heard of wine being sold out. This is not chocolate's it's still a luxury, you know wine is people don't really need it.

Bruce Whitfield: So, what did you produce for them?

Carmen Stevens: I made them a Shiraz, only the next year. A Shiraz and chenin Blanc and it was sold out even, I mean, it was sold way before I even secured the fruit.

Bruce Whitfield: How scary was that?

Carmen Stevens: That was very scary. That was like, how is this even possible?

Bruce Whitfield: Securing the fruit. Now, you don't have your own vineyards.

Carmen Stevens: No.

Bruce Whitfield: That is a luxury. I don’t know what land goes for per hectare in Stellenbosch, but I bet you it's a lot more than land goes for in a maize growing area.

Carmen Stevens: Absolutely.

Bruce Whitfield: And, great wine growing land is taken up and has been taken up for 400 years and often stays within families for long periods of time. So, you've got to buy your grapes.

Carmen Stevens: Yes.

Bruce Whitfield: How do you Source great fruit?

Carmen Stevens: There is really earthy, down-to-earth great grape growers out there and, a lot of them need a lot of them start by selling their fruit to big co-ops.

Bruce Whitfield: It’s how KWV started. It's how they got a hold on the market for as long as I did.

Carmen Stevens: Yes, so I would approach a grower and say listen, I know that if I look at the vent stats, this is what you get more or less if I pay you double that but there's certain things that needs to be done. We need to have a good relationship and I have made some amazing people through that and that is how I solved my fruit.

Bruce Whitfield: Have you been able then through that process to dictate the quality of grapes dictates when grapes are picked to allow the sugars to be exactly right to allow the balance of the fruit to be exactly right? So, you're not, you know, you're buying a product you actually dictating almost perfect that you will be buying.

Carmen Stevens: Initially, I did that by myself and then later I appointed somebody that can go out because during harvest it gets hectic and I don't have the time really to go from venue to venue yet.

Bruce Whitfield: But, you can’t sample a grape from every bunch, you know, trust that the bunches are going to be great.

Carmen Stevens: You take a sample, but you take up representative sample of the block and you can still take a wrong sample. So, you depend on the grower a lot in that regard also on the person that's helping me at the moment. And, then taste is very important. You know, you look at what they've delivered to this guy, where you look at that analysis and you look at analysis you get on your sampling. I've been working with the same produced for quite a few years, so I know more or less where it will fall and I must tell you I am I'm so happy with the 2019 Vintage and also my 2018 Vintage because we move…

Bruce Whitfield: Drought is good for grapes…

Carmen Stevens: Drought is good for grapes… concentrated, beautiful colour, beautiful expression of fruits, beautiful structured wines.

Bruce Whitfield: When you taste a grape can you realistically imagine the wine that will come from their grip was there so much that happens to the great? You know, this is a group that's going to work. You know, there's got the exactly the right balance… sugar isn't acidity and everything else. It's make great wine, but can you imagine the glass and are you wait when you first sample that wine is it what you imagined in the field?

 

Carmen Stevens: I've worked in the South African winelands for very long and I worked in California for three months. And, the one thing I learned from the winemaker worked with was to not go in and look for what you think is going to be in the glass look for what you don't want in the glass. So, when you taste your grapes is it green, does taste green because that is what's going to come through in your wine. You look at the pips, you look at the skin how easily it releases its colour you'd chew that skin to see easy trying out your palate or is it soft you? Look at the colour of the pups is a green as brown dust come easily off the flesh when you squeeze it when you taste it, what'd you get? So, for myself I look at what I don't want in the glass and I've been very fortunate that it worked for me up to now.

Bruce Whitfield: Look, it's got a recipe you you've got it. You've got to stick to it. Where is your business now? Where is Carmen Stevens Wines?

Carmen Stevens: It’s based in Stellenbosch. We are, what they call the new and upcoming Street, which is Bosman’s Crossing. It's quite central in Stellenbosch.

Bruce Whitfield: You’ve got your own Cellar. You don't have the means of production, but you got the means to manufacture.

Carmen Stevens: Yes. So, we are we are officially the first black own winery, 100% black on one in South Africa and we opened that in January of this year.

Bruce Whitfield: And, you get emotional. I mean no, but I see it your eyes your eyes well up your voice changes. It's a very significant achievement.

Carmen Stevens: It's for me. I've worked very hard. I had to prove myself over and over and over again and to be able to say that this is not our place. We make the calls… it is, it puts a different perspective on how you work, how you look at everything. So now I'd say for me, it is indeed, it's a big achievement, but my that's not my end goal. I need to have… it's a nice Cellar space, I have everything that I need to make wine. I can do up to 200 tons in my cellar, but I need a facility with that I can call a home for my wines and, I need to be in a position at some point in my life where I have my own fruit as well. I don’t have all my own fruit, but I have to have access to some of my fruit which I grow myself and that is my next big step.

Bruce Whitfield: Does that happen in Stellenbosch? Would you go to become a bit more adventurous and you go, I mean as fast as Wineland is so expensive, no matter where you go with and be Elgon which is blossomed and Robertson which is doing amazing things and the Swartlands that is coming out of the Chenins that are coming out of this world plant are just rich and magnificent and textured and complex and glorious. So, where do we where do you find that space where you can do it?

Carmen Stevens: I would like to believe that space is going to be in Stellenbosch. Stellenbosch is the tourism hub for…

Bruce Whitfield: It is wine. If you go to anywhere in the world, you speak South African wine, they say, oh you come from Stellenbosch. So, I'm definitely working on that if something else comes up it's a little bit so that I can give my soul to, I’ll probably do that as well. But my first choice is definitely Stellenbosch.

Bruce Whitfield: Is mom still around?

Carmen Stevens: Yes, very much.

Bruce Whitfield: Is she glad she didn't make you pack your bags?

Carmen Stevens: I think, definitely yes. My mom and my dad's very proud of me. I am a middle child, so I've…

Bruce Whitfield: explained everything...

Carmen Stevens: Yes. So, where I come from, I come from a… my mom was a factory worker. So, to have a daughter, we are two (we were three) two very successful children. I think, any mother would be very happy and very proud of that and my mom is extremely proud of us.

Bruce Whitfield: And, the guy who kept you in Elsenburg, the guy who was whom you had the meeting, who read the riot act to your class… I was their classmates but to the people in your class. Well do this for the college to the college is he asked around?

Carmen Stevens: No, unfortunately he passed on.

Bruce Whitfield: But, did he see you succeed?

Carmen Stevens: Yes, he did. He did absolutely

Bruce Whitfield: And, did it matter.

Carmen Stevens: Did it matter? I would like to believe that when he looks back at Elsenburg, he can say that I was part of why Carmen Stevens were able to finish out Elsenburg and be a successful winemaker. I remember years ago, I saw France Truble, who was the MD of Distell where I worked first, and I saw him at the airport and I thought he didn't recognize me and, he said, Hi, it's so nice to see you. How are you? I see that you're doing really really well and that for me is great.

Bruce Whitfield: With peer recognition… you are a peer not working for me anymore. You're doing your own thing. It had the guts and the temerity to go into an industry, which is not welcoming. It's not theirs and treated you warmly and to have to have those agreements. How? I mean you big on paying it forward you big on education you big on supporting kids where you grew up.

Carmen Stevens: Yes. I think I was very lucky years ago, I started a soup kitchen in Behar where I lived, where I grew up and, we were able to feed between three and four hundred kids a cup of soup three times a week and one day I was on a tour with this company in the UK that selling my wines sitting next to somebody and he's Carmen, do you know of any charity in South Africa? Long story short…  He they gave me R6000 I could feed for not two and a half months I same thank you letters, and pictures and they were like, this is amazing. You did this with R6000 is a lot of money in South Africa when you feed kids soup, and they are scant can't be can't be scale this. I was like, what do you mean we cannot cook any more soup, it's coming out of every office, really. We don't have the capacity to but then I thought about it. I said, okay, let me do a survey because I did this, I think my kids are very privileged and that's why I did this. And, I went into the schools to do a survey and I was shocked I was, I think I was emotionally... I did not prepare, I wasn't prepared for what I found, kids fainting in class of hunger, kids being in the sickroom permanently because they’re hungry, kids can't focus, they’re aggressive, teachers can’t work with them. And, I realised that I can’t write this… I cannot write this to these people and then I thought no, put it on paper and send it through. And he said, okay, what will do we will the online company? They sell everything online. He said Carmen, what we’ll do is send an email to all the people who buy your wine and see if they don't want to chip in and I thought, okay. Sent out the email on the Monday, we'll have the donation day on the Friday. We raised 1.2 million again in 10 hours. I was like…

Bruce Whitfield: That’s your favourite number

Carmen Stevens: That’s my favourite number… This is impossible. How do you do this? Because I thought we going to have the nation day. I'll give each school maybe 10,000 and they must in give me the receipts at what they bought, to see if the kids actually benefited from it, and then I thought I cannot do this. So, I registered the NPO and I partnered with a service provider and, we then fit 3060 kids with that money entire school year, breakfast and lunch. The second year, we had it again. This year was during harvest and I said guys, I don't have the time, I'm so busy and, they said, Carmen just sent the pictures, write a small story and let's see where we’ll end up. We raised, we can easily feed this year, 10,000 kids with that money.

Bruce Whitfield: Carmen Stevens is the winemaker and the Chief Executive of the Carmen Stevens Foundation. She’s got her our own wine label. She's big in export and she’s a person in this industry, which isn't being particularly welcoming and particularly kind to her, to watch.