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Benji Coetzee - Founder of EmptyTrip
Benji Coetzee is an award-winning disruptor with two Masters’ degrees from Stellenbosch University and Goethe University Frankfurt in Germany. She is the founder and Chief Executive of EmptyTrips – an AI-enabled digital logistics platform, using smart matching algorithms to connect and create a marketplace for vehicles with spare capacity. EmptyTrip is a Uber-like platform for cargo that powers a new way of collaborative thinking across enterprises for faster and smarter logistics, improve economics and significantly reduce carbon footprint. Her work has been widely recognised and, in 2018, Coetzee was named Forbes Global Top60 woman in technology, a Top50 woman to watch by Entrepreneur Magazine, a trailblazer for change by CNBC Africa and an impact challenger by Singularity University.
Transcript
Bruce: Today's guest is Benji Coetzee, co-founder and Chief Executive of EmptyTrips. Now, if you’ve ever been on the road and you've seen a long convoy of empty trucks coming toward you and ever thought to yourself ‘that looks like an awful waste of money’. These trucks have come from one place, taken a product from point A to point B, but they are going back from B to A empty, there's an opportunity… and you think to yourself, there's got to be a business in there somewhere. Well sorry, you've been beaten to the business because that's exactly the thought process that Benji Coetzee had one day, on the road.
Benji: It's a seven trillion-dollar industry and it's been said not only in South Africa globally it’s a 30 to 40% issue and capacity mismatch. It's a problem that we need to fix the fact that we have more catastrophic environmental incidents over the last five years than we've ever seen before, we need to take drastic change and not all of us are going to recycle, and not all of us are going to make drastic changes, but if we simply just fix the wastage in this one industry, we could actually just reduce carbon emissions by need 5%. This is one industry.
Bruce: I'm Bruce Whitfield and you're listening to RMB Solutionist Thinking.
Bruce: Which road was it?
Benji: It was actually the N3 from Durban to Johannesburg, sitting alongside of my partner at the time and I said, well, this is clearly so inefficient, and he said well if you can figure out a way to match cargo to those tracks that will be the holy grail of logistics. And, I love a challenge.
Bruce: So, Logistics always has been you're a company a and you run your trucks and you do a delivery for your clients. And if you do this properly, if you have the furniture removal companies, I think they quite good at it in terms of matching their trips, but they are matching trips for their clients. They are sourcing their clients. You looked at it slightly differently and said I can match this truck with a multiplicity of clients. You're not just restricting yourself to the world of Stuttorfords or whomever.
Benji: No, I think it's a, it's more of a marketplace logic or thinking that I took, and I said well if all of the companies continue to work in a vacuum, we not going to reduce this inefficiency. But, if you look the shared economy in which is the Airbnbs, the Ubers, it's typically just marketplaces better matching capacity to requirement and kind of the logic that I took.
Bruce: So, who was the first person you proposed this to and what was their reaction to it?
Benji: Funny enough, it was my parents. And I said I was going to quit my great corporate career and give it a go - instead of going to do a Master’s or another MBA. And my dad said well it’s a great idea, but how are you going to do it? When I started going into the technology side of it, I lost him. I lost him immediately. And then the second person I actually proposed the two was my boss at the time and him being in private equity and venture capital and niche consulting. He said, you know what, you've clearly got a hunger for entrepreneurship. I hope that you survive or that you succeed because 99% of startups fail. It's a great idea but now go to in that idea into something that's actually worthwhile listening to, other than just the idea. So that's kind of where I got the go-ahead from.
Bruce: Your background is mathematical you worked as an investment banker, you've worked as a Management Consultant. Are any of those disciplines useful?
Benji: Management consulting definitely even Investment Banking…
Bruce: You’ve learned to bluff your way with the best.
Benji: I can't badmouth the investment bankers. I was just a bit bored. So, there's only so many analytical models that you can build and invested memos that you can write the gets turned down, or you know creative committee doesn't approve - because I'm a risk taker, unfortunately, so it wasn't a good fit for me to be an analyst at a bank. I think, we all safer without me being an analyst there. But management consulting differently. I think BCG is probably the hardest things I've ever done in my life other than become an entrepreneur because they push you to a whole different level. So, you grow when you're uncomfortable and BCG consistently made me uncomfortable, whether it be hours of work, new types of modeling or analysis that I had to learn, that I had no idea about how to do. You always just nod to the client and you say yes, we'll figure it out even though you're not a specialist.
So, I think BCG taught me a few things that taught me how to structure a company how to restructure company, how to do a strategy, how to pivot from a strategy how to cut costs, how to be Innovative, how to manifest a culture of productivity and creativity - which is really important when you're a startup. And, how also to deal with very different personalities in the room, be it from a narcissistic egotistical CEO, which is often the case in S&P 500, that's why they're successful, it's a trait. To a very diplomatic chairman of the board to influencing a whole bunch of board members to potentially select what you've proposed so that they actually can execute it, be it an acquisition of a company be a divestment of a company entering a new market, launching a new product, how to deal with competition… I mean, we dealt with a very big operator or manufacturer car manufacturer and how they're going to respond to Uber. I mean, that really changed my thinking. So, from that perspective management consulting gave me this toolbox that made me think open and bigger and I always felt that I wasn't smart enough to be there, which always made me want to over-achieve and prove that I am smart enough to be there.
Bruce: So, you propose this to your parents who go well if you think that's the right thing to do dear, which is usually are you completely crazy. That’s code for ‘Are you completely crazy? You go to your boss, you say, I'm resigning to do this. Do you develop software do develop the tech or do you take your idea to Market first because for so many people going towards startup, they've got the great idea and a terrified to let go of that idea for the fear that somebody else but like Alexander Graham Bell and the guy whose name I forget, who actually did invent the telephone were going neck and neck in order to get there first and Bell gets the credit. You don't want to be overtaken.
Benji: Yeah, and I think I mean that's an anxiety that everyone has an even if once you've launched a company up from an idea, every morning I used to wake up with a lot of anxiety of who's copying me who's got more capital to throw it this, you know, who's going to outrun me when is Uber Freight coming to South Africa, you know, and eventually I just had to let that go but the biggest advice I can give to anyone that wants to launch any type of business from tech to manufacturing to new nail varnish. It's just an idea until you actually execute. And to raise capital in South Africa is really tough. And I cannot make environment not even tougher. So if you don't have the gift of the gab, you haven't actually gotten a prototype to at least show them - we all have ideas I wake up with a hundred ideas in the middle of a nut but I haven't executed on them because tomorrow morning I would have forgotten about them, you know, but now I've gotten someone's funding to go and do it - so first go do it tried risk your own money it also makes you more - how can I say - particular about what you should develop or not, because it's your cost. And then, take it to an investor and even then, not everything needs to investment not everything needs Capital to get ahead.
Bruce: You did that. You took two million rand of savings, which you'd builds up in your professional career and you threw it at the problem and the problem that you're looking to solve was empty trucks.
Benji: Ja, empty trucks and trains and, I did that. I think when you start something you need to feel passionate about it and why I felt passionate about it is because I saw all of the secondary negative impacts that empty trucks and trains were creating to our economy, the damage to our roads, the social impact from the promiscuous behavior from the truck drivers, HIV all these things. So, it had this triple impact play and being a millennial, I was like, well I can make profit improve the environment by reducing the carbon emissions if I could find better matches and hopefully have a social impact by creating sustainable jobs and less negative impact by transport which we need for economic growth. We always will need this industry. So, I felt very passionate about the industry itself. I did underestimate how hard it was going to be. I did underestimate that I should probably have test my hypothesis not with my dad and with my employer at the time but with more people in the industry. I should have been more cognizant of the pushback I was going to get from place because they feel cannibalism is going to happen.
Bruce: Now, take me through this. I mean, there are people in the industry who must feel a bit stupid that they haven't thought of this themselves. You’re a woman going into a man's industry, into a man's world, traditionally and they're going to look at you and go seriously, you can deliver a solution for me. Do you not know who I am?
Benji: We got that often.
Bruce: I'm sure.
Benji: The first thing was, that I didn't come from the industry, right? So, I was a Management Consultant so I'm good with math and I can analyze, and I can create great slides and I can present them well. And then you also sit in front of them and they have this regret because they had this idea, because they didn't do it. So, you have this like animosity and regret play going on in the boardroom, and then it's just all this young Millennial that's telling them how to run their business potentially when I'm actually just asking to say let's try it. Let's try it. It's going to be in your benefit will be in my benefit will be in your customers benefit literally is a triple win here, but then you get this resistance because it's also change. And that's why I think a lot of companies are going to become irrelevant very soon because they have this inertia towards change. And all these are innovators are coming, but they want to bring them along but doesn't happen.
Bruce: Because you threatened to disrupt the way I've done things for decades. I have trucks that come from the copper fields of Zambia and they bring their product to smelters in South Africa, for argument sake, or they take it to ports in South Africa and the trucks then immediately hightail it back to the copper fields because there's another load to bring to the port. You saw this new it hold on a second, but there's a port full of stuff here that could either go be dropped off halfway or could be taken all the way back to the same copper fields.
Benji: Exactly and I think our goal was to democratize the access to the data to no way the capacity is and where the cargo is. And being a portal and not actually owning the truck, or the train, or the cargo, we were completely impartial as to what's the best match. It's always about optimizing the space usage. And I think that played a very big influence into the industry to actually start to trust us.
Bruce: Who was the first?
Benji: Actually, surprising one of the first companies that signed up that never used the portal and still, I'm still maneuvering around them, is Imperial. So clearly, they felt very threatened. They were like, what's this little startup that's come up here and who's this little founder and all the type that's been created because…
Bruce: Logically you would think that the Barlows of the world and the Imperials of the world are South Africa's Premier Logistics Companies, they are the guys who would have spearheaded this in their own interests.
Benji: So, I know Imperial actually has an internal platform that could be seen as a competitor but their moth borders, so I think they spent a bit of money on it and it might have been someone's pet project, but the industry wasn't ready yet. It wasn't because Imperial didn't make the right moves. They actually probably did, and they are visionaries, but the timing wasn't right, and I must say our timing was right. I mean, it's been a good two and a half years of maneuvering and massaging and we still, we slowly ticking up and it's getting there and it's not like boom… Airbnb wasn't a boom, Uber wasn't a boom. It's systematic. The market needs to be really the industry needs to be ready. But they did take notice. And when I said well work with us, then they were like no, no, we have to protect our own… which is, which is sad to think because instead of just collaborating within the ecosystem. They wanted to protect their own turf
Bruce: It’s the most terrifying words for traditional businesses – collaborate within the ecosystem - you've just used two foreign words. And “in the” are the only ones that a lot of companies understand. So where have you had success? Where have you had cargo that sort of - because not all trucks can be used, some trucks of the format is wrong. You can't use a fuel Bowser to transport milk for example, they'd be contamination. So how do you figure out what can and can't work?
Benji: So, within the algorithm - actually three factors that we consider. So, one is location based so say where's it coming from and where is it going to both the track and the car got with a hundred-kilometer radius around it to find a possible directional match. Once it's a directional match, then we go into the spatial match, i.e.: the density and the volume of the cargo and the density and well the volume and the carrying capacity of the vehicle, or that train, it doesn't really matter. Once you have those two possible matches within ranges. Then we said, okay what is possible to be carried on this vehicle or not? And usually the carriers will just say what they cannot do. So, say for example they’ve been carrying iron ore, there's cross-contamination. It's not really much we can put in their truck other than iron ore.
Bruce: So, for example, the world's longest trains go from Sishen to Walvis Bay and it's a wonderful one-way trip... and then there's an empty train that goes on the way back. That you couldn't fill with beach sand, for argument's sake?
Benji: I guess you could, but you also need to... there needs to be demand and supply of the goods that are moving. So, even all the containers that run up empty to Zambia for example to go fetch copper. We can't always put enough Cargo in those containers because Zambia is not ordering enough finished goods from us to send up there. So, there was always that imbalance
Bruce: There is stuff though that you could go you can put some cases of beer, for example
Benji: It’s a very sore point…
Bruce: … from a brewery in Durban to Zambia. Why is it a sore point?
Benji: So, it took us nearly two years. That's I think the one thing that a lot of entrepreneurs that want to become founders or potential entrepreneurs, they need to realize that things take 10 times longer when you deal with corporates.
Because we're a business to business platform, I underestimated this courting period. Right. One, you have to change their mindset. Two, you need to go through the bureaucracy. And then three, you actually just need to survive that until they are all on board. Between two of the biggest rail operators in Africa - somehow by some grace - I happened to find myself in the right room at the right time between the right parties. And basically, our algorithm identified an opportunity between copper moving south and beer moving North. And how we identified that is because we were monitoring volumes at the borders. And that wasn't in our portal, but we did research to say well, how are we going to actually unboard client? We need to think differently, we need to actually go and force their data on to find matches because if they don't participate in the marketplace, we don't have their data, so we can't find matches. If you're not on a dating site, you're not going to find your perfect partner, right? So, we actually wanted to influence it a bit.
So, we figured that out and I was like, you know what the containers are perfect. Copper has to move in a locked container if it's by rail. I'm a big evangelist for rail. I believe it's underestimated. I think it's great for the environment, I think it's good for our economy. It is all these beautiful things that go with it…
Bruce: The infrastructure exists. It gets vehicles off the roads, which are dangerous and damage the roads and do all kinds of stuff and trains are very good at crossing vast landscapes without incident…
Benji: And they don't have the delays of the Border like trucks do. So that's actually quite an interesting fact that I only learned later because they don't… A train will have a manifest and the manifest will be cleared within an hour. Because a train can't just stop and offload an onload without it being recorded on the manifest. So, with trucks, trucks can go off the road. Yup. It can go into the side roads, you don’t know what is now loading onto that truck, so cause a lot of delays at the border. So, a train will clear within an hour and trucks at the Zim border could stand there for days, at Beit Bridge. So, I'm a big evangelist for rail.
So, I then approached AB Inbev and I said listen, I know you have a big innovation agenda 3G Capital obviously bought Sa Breweries, so we know that they love cost saving initiatives, Innovation and change. So, I've got the solution for you. I want to move your beer from South Africa to Lusaka, which is about I think they’re sending about 66,000 trucks a year. Budweiser. And I want to take that, and I want to potentially match it to a train and those same containers are going to come back with copper. You might get a marginal cost saving – I can’t promise the cost saving just yet. We need volumes to get that cost down because the rail operators need to recover their Capital cars etcetera and they very inefficient as we know they're not be price dynamic… if I can say
Bruce: They’re stuck in their ways.
Benji: Yeah, they stuck anyways. So, I said just give me some time and give me some consideration and it's going to be a difficult tripartite agreement because it's going to be between a cargo broker, a copper trader and then you guys and potentially then also the actual operators… so it's actually more. And we maneuvered it and it took us two years and then we got Grindrod to agree to be the agent - the booking agent the rail booking agents. We got a commodity Trader which they work with to put the copper in the same containers. The absolute saving would be actually from the container rentals that we're then sharing between the two. AB Inbev were getting excited to make the green train, you know, the AB Inbev Green Train. I mean, it's been nothing 15 years since they sent any be about train. So, it really is bringing back rail that make rail great again, and then after all of that was agreed and sign-offs we're going to do a pilot. Transnet blocked the loading.
So, it was all that work. And that's something I mean, I'm really trying to build a good relationship with Transnet, I know they're going through so much change, but don't kill innovation. Don't kill it. All the hard work was done - you'd agreed as well - and then at the last minute it makes all of us look stupid…
Bruce: It’s astonishing though that we have state owned entities that are incapable with the playing catch-up all will be dragged along. They don't have to do the work. They just been dragged along through a process and could be made to look smart and relevant again.
Benji: I mean, I was all about marketing then great again. You know, so it's been a bit of a love-hate relationship between myself and Transnet and I hopefully they will get there one day and they'll see me as a partner or potential target - or whatever the case may be - but they have the ability to change rail and Africa because they own more than 80% of the railway track on the continent. Did you know that?
Bruce: It's a lost opportunity, if they don't seize it.
Benji: They don't have an online booking portal. They don't have any customer service. You try to get hold of Transnet to move any freight and then they wonder why… And then they also not competitive on the pricing because they don't have dynamic price setting. So, I said well through Rail Fox - which was a part of Empty Trips which only focusses on rail - is to say, like booking a flight - if there’s high demand this price obviously goes up. If there’s low demand the price goes down. It's not rocket science what I'm doing but let me bring it for you. You can have it, just partner with me. You can have it. Still nothing.
Bruce: What is working?
Benji: So, what is working is we have over a hundred and ten transport companies on the port on our trucking companies. It gives us access to over 6,000 trucks which makes us the largest fleet in Africa by virtue of our partners…
Bruce: In the same way as Airbnb is the biggest seller of beds without owning a single bed. You're the biggest seller of trucks without a new truck.
Benji: Well, we try to be right. Now it's to… I think the most important thing for us is to just survive the cycle of people adopting. So, there's still a lot of resistance to technology and our platform. So, you get this transporter signing up because it's a no-brainer to them… it's free to use if there's a match they pay me three percent. It's it's only on success. So, for them, it's an absolute no-brainer. They get a daily notification. It's set to their preferences if there's a match or if they can bid on cargo. So, for them it's a no-brainer. For the cargo owners it's still a bit more of a hand holding - and that's kind of where we need to survive this lack turn or dip because for them it's this have always done it, I trust my transporter and I'm hoping that he optimizes his return trip. But you don't know. You don't know if he is or not. So, there is still that influence that we need to do on the demand side because if there's no demand there's no match right and I think that's the most difficult thing about building a marketplace is building both demand and supply side and building the technology itself. So, it's building three businesses at once.
And we focus so much on the supply now, I need to shift my focus to the demand side and ja just keep pushing hey
Bruce: Are you profitable?
Benji: Close. Actually, I think this month I’m waiting for my financials, I think we are now finally profitable. So, what we've done is we've been very smart. Obviously the first two years of a start-up you have a lot of sub costs - marketing costs, new staff, staff that don't work out, technology… we had to rewrite our technology twice which was a huge knock for our financials, but now finally have restructured the company last year December. We also saw the part of our business which was Insurance business which we built by accident - so that was a surprise. We sold that to a listed company. I would share that once it's signed and that obviously also shifts us to gives us the capital that we need to continue to try and do what we do until we find the right partner to continue what we're doing and a more sustainable manner.
I think last year when we restructured the company it was a very big application of what I had learned at BCG and it was hard to let people go because they actually they killed your, your profitability. You don't always need this big team - people think that team make the product. Yes, team does make the product but sometimes the product needs to make the team and I hired too quickly, and I fired too slowly so that was a lesson learned. And it wasn't firing was actually letting people go on their next journey for us to continue ours…
Bruce: I asked Raymond Ackerman once, what's been your biggest mistake in nearly 60 years of retail and he said letting people go to slowly. And I think the millennial culture is different. Millennial culture is less tolerant of dead wood.
Benji: I mean personally, I was more tolerant - and they weren't dead wood because they all did add value - it was just we couldn't sustain that level of expenses. Given that we're a Marketplace, we work on three to six percent basis points, so our margins are, what we earn is very small. So, you need to build yourself very lean and you’re technology business. I'm not there to replace Imperial or Grindrod. I’m there to enable them. Right so I can't build this big business all these people and then my shareholders say there’s nothing left for us. You know, you have to build a lean, mean and keen and that also helps you survive and extend your runway
Bruce: At what point did you bring outside capital in? Because you bootstrapped with your own money, and you've still got the sweat beads building on your brows as you think about it. How long did it take before you brought in capital? And how did you choose your partner's? How did they choose you?
Benji: So, I don't have a very normal story of how I raise venture capital. Firstly, I didn't want to raise venture capital. I had an idea how to raise venture capital, even though I was in private equity in a venture capital firm.
Bruce: Isn't it funny how you can be in a profession, and have absolutely no idea in practical terms, exactly how the industry works.
Benji: Exactly. So, I had no intention… I thought no, you know what I'm going to build it. This is what my budget, this is my runway. I'm going to run it on my own - I might hire someone if I get tired - because I'm consulting on the side. I have a consultancy called SeedPitch - that will fund me, fund Empty Trips, my pet project.
Cause it’ll need time, it’ll need three years - and I'll budget for that. But then I underestimated the cost and underestimated the timeline. I started to run out of money. I was physically fatigued from Consulting and trying to do a start-up. It got so much attention so soon which I also didn't expect because it was this great idea and everyone's like this is going to change, you know, I wrote and this and this and I was very excited about that. So, I wanted to capitalize on that while I had that momentum, but then I realized well if I keep going at this rate one, I'm going to be dead broke and my baby's going to starve and so I better start looking. So, did a pitch deck. My first pitch deck was terrible. I probably have 58 versions of it by now. But in any case, I then started to talk to different VC’s and the main VC's in South Africa and they all said well great concept, you've proven a prototype. Where are your revenues - and revenues were there but they were meagre, meagre, meagre, meagre - because we also ran a lot of pilots for free because we have to prove ourselves. We’re the new kids on the block, we’re women, we’re tech, we're completely different.
The industry was like What is this. So, it really took a lot of persuasion to get investors to say well, okay, this is proper VC, right? This is early stage, high risk. I've shown my interest, I've invested everything I have so I'm totally at risk I need to make this work. And then eventually I think I was at my complete whit’s end, and I was exhausted, and I said no my consulting firm was flying was flying because now I'm thinking differently about things. I see things as a business owner perspective…
Bruce: Now you got real world experience
Benji: Now executives actually do listen to me because I'm like stop your nonsense. This is what we gonna do it. This is practical, this is not practical think about this so that really helped my Consulting side of the business. So, I thought to myself well this default is working so well, but this is my baby. Empty Trips is my baby, you know, I believe in this I believe we need this you can find a consultant in every block. It's a might be different but not that much greater than any other Management Consultant So based on that I said, okay. Well, let me start looking and I went I spoke to a whole bunch of investors on got no no, no, no no, no, no. Great concept keeps in touch. Keep in touch and VC still SMS me and I just ignore them now eventually one of the ladies that worked US helped us with our marketing Tracy Vince's she said, well, I just left Unicorn Capital Partners – they’re listed on the JC and they actually bought since you remaining they actually in industrial space and they looking for some alternative investments. I know you're moeg just go chat to them. So, I was like, you know what it's on my way home.
Bruce: It's a little bit like when Naspers was busy packing its bags and China and Pony Ma arrived at the Naspers office one day and said, I've got this thing called Tencent, give me 32 million dollars - and the rest is history.
Benji: I wish I got 32 million dollars, but yeah.
Bruce: It's that opportunity where had you on that day said I'm tired, I couldn't be bothered.
Benji: Yeah, and I was - at that stage, right, because you have Founders fatigue that kicks in and you're tired and your team's tired and they’re worried about the next salary and you worried about paying the next salary. And I met with Jacques Badenhorst and he was just absolutely one of the best people could have met on that day. And he said listen to you have time to drive through to Pretoria and go see Thinus de Bruyn from Caliber Capital - and Caliber is one of what one of his mentors as well, and investors in Unicorn.
And I met with Thinus, and Thinus didn’t even look at my pitch deck, he said tell me about your business… How much have you invested? Why do you believe in this? Then he threw a few questions at me of about tech structuring offshore - because I did a master's in corporate finance and Germany focusing on tax. So, I gave him like what I thought about tax structuring. And I think he just like me thought I was capable and he said how much did you invest? And I said well just over two million and he's like how much you looking for and I said just six million and he said I'll give you 3 million and he said how much would you want to get give for the 6 million? I said 10% and he said I'll give you 3 million for 20% So I was like.
Bruce: This is like Dragons Den real world.
Benji: Yeah, and then I was like, are you serious? And he's like, yes. Let's start the due diligence and as I was like here, we go… how can you due diligence a company that's seven months old. I don't have any claws of funny things in my closet. We're too small. We have no loans. No one will give a startup of a loan. I can't even get a personal loan anymore because I'm not an entrepreneur.
Bruce: because you don’t have a payslip.
Benji: I don’t have a payslip. I don't get paid. And it was a five-day dd with Unicorn Capital’s CFO and we went through everything and that was it and I was like this is it guys. Now we can redo the technology fix the things that we did wrong we can get the right team. I spent a lot I wasted a lot and I honestly said, and I've always said that to them and I've apologized - and Thinus now still backs me. So, I'm helping him look at new investments to take global or grow their manufacturing capacity…
Bruce: Is the dream still intact that you can reduce substantially, the number of empty trucks on the road, the number of empty trains going in one direction and possibly even empty planes?
Benji: Without a doubt! Globally, it's a seven trillion-dollar industry and it's it's been said not only in South Africa, with all our in efficiencies, globally it's a thirty to forty percent issue and capacity mismatch. So even though I focus first and South Africa and then hopefully Africa and then globally, it's a problem that we need to fix. The fact that we have more catastrophic environmental incidents over the last five years than we've ever seen before we need to take drastic change. And not all of us are going to recycle and not all of us are going to make drastic changes, but if we simply just fix the wasted in this one industry, we could actually just reduce carbon emissions by need 5%. This is one industry.
Bruce: You could reduce carbon emissions you could save money and you could create a sustainable business. That's three things.
Benji: That's the triple bottom line impact right.
Bruce: Benji Coetzee is the founder and Chief Executive of Empty Trips.